RB25DET NEO Ignition map tuning question

[godzilla_753]

Hey guys,

I have an rb25det NEO engine with 620cc injectors and HE351CW turbo. The car is running great with a rough tune but I want to take it to a local tuner to tune, Alamo Autosports in Texas, on a dyno. He has never used nistune before but is familiar with a lot of standalone systems. He is telling me I cannot run more than 17 psi on the stock motor and I should bring it to him set at 17psi (boost level I have currently set it to). This is contradictory to the ignition map tuning guide which states to start at full boost and decrement boost to access less and less of the map to tune those cells. He says he has never heard of that before and to just bring the car set at 17 psi. Is he correct that boost does not have to be reduced? or should I find another tuner? Can the stock motor only handle 17psi with this turbo? (I was thinking of running 23 psi) I've also attached a map of current tune, I am not sure if the ignition timing is excessive for knock, I do not hear any with electronic amp/headphones. Can you guys look at the ignition timing map as well for me?

RB25det NEO Stagea MT 4WD

Thanks in advance!

[Matt]

Refer to our NEO tuning information document and show the tuner this:
http://nistune.com/docs/Nistune%20NEO%2 ... Tuning.pdf

(Its on our website General Documentation section)

There is a whole section on boosting over the stock (17psi) boost sensor voltage. You can disconnect the sensor (adjust the boost voltage minimum to 0V) to avoid boost cuts as well as increase the boost limit and TP limit counter from 10 (default) to 255

If using a NEO outside of an R34 vehice (ie without TCS connected), then you must use a 4WD WC34 Stagea NEO image (ie most conversions with a NEO) to avoid boost cuts

MT:
WC34_RB25DET_23710_0V80F_4WD_MT_FP.ent
AT:
WC34_RB25DET_0V81F_4WD_AT_FP.ent

[godzilla_753]

Hello Matt,

Attached is a graph of the dyno results and the current tune, I didn't use the updated map you attached because there is no knock maps on that one (all the values are 0), I also don't think knock analysis works on this ecu, is this the case with the stagea ecu, does it not analyze knock? It ended up making 266whp, but I didn't advance the ignition maps because I didn't know if knock analysis was working, I did listen to the engine with headphones and an amp to knock sensor but I was scared i might not be hearing the knock so i didn't advance the ignition maps and the tuner said the timing was already aggressive enough. Do you think that is the case based on the tune I posted? Where do you think is the problem is that I didn't make much power? I did a boost leak test just before taking to tuner and it boosted fine, also the the engine compression is good at 170psi on all cylinders. Maybe the turbo was slow response? It held at 17 psi all the way but it looks like its kicking in late, 4k rpm, i think its supposed to open up at 3k rpm.

Holset HE351CW turbo @17 PSI
630cc injectors
Z32 MAF
255 isis fuel pump
stock exhaust manifold
stock cams

[Matt]

Attached is a graph of the dyno results and the current tune, I didn't use the updated map you attached because there is no knock maps on that one (all the values are 0)

My tune probably uses the feature pack firmware. You can File > Import it instead

I also don't think knock analysis works on this ecu, is this the case with the stagea ecu, does it not analyze knock?

Yes it will analyze knock and retard timing. If too much knock then switch to knock maps (usually used when running lower octane fuel)

It ended up making 266whp

Pretty low. Thats about 200rwkw and my R34 made 220rwkw stock (big exhaust, FMIC however) on 12psi

but I didn't advance the ignition maps because I didn't know if knock analysis was working, I did listen to the engine with headphones and an amp to knock sensor but I was scared i might not be hearing the knock so i didn't advance the ignition maps and the tuner said the timing was already aggressive enough.

Amount of timing depends on boost run. My last tune attached shows timing on 17psi with 3071 turbo (and cams)

Do you think that is the case based on the tune I posted?

There is hardly any change to the fuel map in the tune posted. Normally with larger injectors I would expect the fuel map to be a LOT flatter (this has the same top as factory). 630CC vs 380CC would expect values of 30 (filtered view) rather than 60 otherwise it would be too rich

Timing is same of factory in that 'beta tune' file you posted. See my tune (attached) for timing I was running

Where do you think is the problem is that I didn't make much power?

Not sure at this time. Was this 'beta tune' what the tuner did? That looks factory. The timing map on the RB25DET NEO tune has some timing pulled out (expected when adding more boost top end)

Its a balance between boost you are running, and then you no longer get an increase in power with additional timing (when approaching detonation thresholds)

I did a boost leak test just before taking to tuner and it boosted fine, also the the engine compression is good at 170psi on all cylinders. Maybe the turbo was slow response? It held at 17 psi all the way but it looks like its kicking in late, 4k rpm, i think its supposed to open up at 3k rpm

I'm not that familiar with this turbo to comment on that part

[godzilla_753]

The beta tune is what is currently being run but he took out fuel to make it 11.2: AFR, the file didn't save however. Would it make more power if the afr on high end were leaner? He said 11.2 is leanest I can go on 93 octane fuel, but would 12 AFR be ideal? The knock timing maps and fuel maps were never highlighted on the dyno, and there arent knock sensor options like knock counter in my nistune menus. Attached is a picture of the knock warning panel, it stays faded out like that whether connected or not, have I set that up correctly? I check and uncheck knock analysis but it still doesn't work.

[Matt]

The beta tune is what is currently being run but he took out fuel to make it 11.2: AFR, the file didn't save however.

Explains why fuel/timing maps appear unchanged

Would it make more power if the afr on high end were leaner? He said 11.2 is leanest I can go on 93 octane fuel, but would 12 AFR be ideal?

Running leaner does result in more power, but then higher combustion temps and leading towards detonation. Not sure what your 93 octane is compared to our RON 98 octane here (which we run at a minimum) but usually we tune for 11.5:1 with that type of fuel

The knock timing maps and fuel maps were never highlighted on the dyno, and there arent knock sensor options like knock counter in my nistune menus.

The ECU has knock analysis still and will only switch knock maps if there is sufficient detonation.
Please note that knock reporting is only currently available for the earlier ECUs in the Nistune software

Attached is a picture of the knock warning panel, it stays faded out like that whether connected or not, have I set that up correctly? I check and uncheck knock analysis but it still doesn't work.

Just means the software is unable to read the knock feedback from the ECU for display